An interview with Rev. Robert L. Lee

Interview with Rev. Robert L. Lee conducted by Rev. Andrew Kneeland and Kirstie Skogerboe 
Book release of From Freedom to Life: A History of the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations 
AFLC Annual Conference on AFLC Campus, Plymouth, MN 
June 13, 2024 

 

Andrew Kneeland: Good afternoon, Annual Conference. It's 3:15. We want to get started, be respectful of our time, and also make the most of our time. We have a few minutes this afternoon with Pastor Lee. If you want to come find a seat, we'd love to spend some time talking about AFLC history with the AFLC historian. I'm Andrew Kneeland with Kirstie Skogerboe here, happy to visit with Pastor Lee. You know, if anybody in the AFLC needs no introduction, it's really Pastor Lee. Pastor Lee has been with us from the very beginning—Thief River back in the day, attended Augsburg College, Bethel, he has served parishes in Tioga and Valley City and at Helmer Lutheran in Illinois, and [worn] many different hats in the AFLC as well. And you know all of these very well. He has been an instructor at the Bible School and Seminary for nearly 20 years, editor of The Lutheran Ambassador for 12 years, president of the AFLC for 15 years. Pastor Lee, we're so thankful for you, grateful for you and your many years with us, with the AFLC, with our church body. You’ve long been regarded as the unofficial historian of the AFLC, and now, Pastor Lee, it’s official—you are the historian of the AFLC. This is the book we talked about last night. We’re so happy and thankful and grateful for this gift that you’ve given to us as a church body. So I just wanted to start by asking you, Pastor Lee, why was it important that this book be written?  

Robert Lee: There are a couple of quotes by different authors included in the book that maybe partially answer that question. “People won't reach for the future unless they connect with the past,” one writer said. And someone else wrote (and I think this Carl Sandberg one is referred to), where when a nation or a church, whatever, goes backward, they forgot where they came from. They forgot where they came from. And I think that there was a group of people, 60 plus years ago now, who hadn’t forgotten where they came from, and it was very important to them to continue on. And I think now, as the generations have passed (goodnight, some of you are young! I get people now, my last times of teaching, it’s grandchildren, you know, coming, of people. And it is so important to pass on who we are and why we are who we are, to them and to congregations too that are interested in us. I'm afraid  (and I think I say that somewhere in the book) that maybe there are some who came to us because of our high stand on the Scripture, that this is what they wanted too. But that’s not enough. We are a spiritual movement with convictions at the very heart, and that we need to be careful to pass on to new generations. And I hope that the book will be a tool in that regard. Long answer. I’m sorry. They won't all [be]. 

Andrew Kneeland: No, perfect. Perfect. 

Kirstie Skogerboe: So you provide much more background in the book, but when we think of the start of the AFLC, we often think of that October 1962 meeting in Thief River Falls. What were those first 76 congregations concerned about? What was motivating them?  

Robert Lee: Yeah. I think of a lady who is quoted somewhere in the book, who grew up in the Lutheran Free Church and who said that attending the annual conferences was a family deal for them, and the farming was put aside as the family loaded up and headed for the conference. And I think that that heritage was still alive in some of these congregations. Fevold, in his book which I quote, says that he thought that mostly it was a situation of following their pastor. That’s why congregations pulled out. And that’s very unfortunate. Very unfortunate. And as you look and analyze the situation, most of the congregations weren't following their pastor, or there were pastors who refused to take a stand on it, who said it's up to you, completely up to you, and it wasn't just simply a blind following of the pastor that brought these people to Thief River Falls in 1962 to say we've got to make a new beginning. Now I believe at that time—and there was some difference among the people who were there—some believed it was still not too late to save the Lutheran Free Church and we could still mobilize votes and influence congregations and turn the merger aside. And that was felt right down to the very last conference of the Lutheran Free Church. Some thought, and at some of the meetings, they said, if we pray about it, if we trust the Lord, we will see this happen. So it was in that sense a mixed group. Some that were there thought there's still a chance, but there were also those there who said, we’ve got to make a new beginning. I fought against the merger. I was wrong. It was time to make a new beginning. And those who had that conviction were the ones who were right, and I think history has proven them so as we look back and as we look forward. 

Kirstie Skogerboe: So, speaking of the merger, an argument in the 50s for the merger was that it was vital (in quotes), “vital for our future existence.” So the temptation was to merge for the survival of the church. What do you think might be current temptations for our church body as we pass on our heritage to new generations? And how can the example of the AFLC founders encourage us in that pursuit?  

Robert Lee: I don't know if there's any future merger movements in the works that would be even interested in us. Maybe there's some possibilities at some point, but we've had a lot of congregations who have come to us over the 60 plus years who have been casualties of these merger movements too. What are the current temptations? And I suppose it kind of goes back to what I said to the earlier question. Forgetting who we are and not passing those convictions on to new generations. And that's always going to be a temptation. 

Andrew Kneeland: Pastor Lee, one thing that struck me looking through these early years of the AFLC was the ratio between pastors and lay people. I think you said in 1964 (the 1964 annual conference), 21 pastors and 435 lay people in attendance. More pastors came later, obviously, but why has lay representation, and really activity, why has that been so important to the AFLC? 

Robert Lee: Well, we wouldn’t have survived without it, that’s for sure. I mention in the book the first pastors, and it wasn’t a very encouraging group—maybe three of them in their thirties, not many in their forties, most of them facing retirement age I would say in regards to that too, although it didn't stop them from keeping on serving. Wonderful. (I was thinking of Pastor Trygve Dahle, how he kept on going as long as he lived, really, serving and helping out in various places, and serving the AFLC, and the dorm is named for him now because he was the fundraiser for that particular dorm.) This is a concern of mine for the future.  

May I say this, and offend some people? If you are a pastor here, and there’s nobody here from your congregation, shame on you. Double shame. It’s maybe more important that they’re here than you are. (You can question me on that one.) That was something there at the beginning. The lay representation was strong because people thought it made a difference that they were there. And they came.  

I remember in the Beaver Creek Church south of Tioga, North Dakota, sometimes it seems like practically half the congregation loaded up and went to the conference. And they came back, and they had a Sunday evening service where they gave a full conference report. They even read from the report. I remember a lady reading the whole clergy roster. It got very long sometimes, but this was important to them that they were there and they had a part in it. And I do believe that the pastors need to take the leadership in that direction. We need our lay people here, and that has weakened. That has weakened over the years, and that’s a concern, should be a concern of all of us. Okay. Any of you pastors offended because I said that? Live with it. Okay. 

Andrew Kneeland: Yeah, that's great. Another concern or passion of the early AFLC, those early years—it didn't take long for them to found a Bible school and a seminary. Why were those things so important to them?  

Robert Lee: Wow, and you know, you can almost add to that the mission outreach too.  

Andrew Kneeland: Sure.  

Robert Lee: What in the world were these people thinking, that such a thing would be possible even? But they did, and they were told it was impossible. I've quoted from one of the articles in the last issue of the Lutheran Free Church paper where they just kind of made fun of us. And they said, you won't even have an editor for your paper, you know. What are you going to do? There's no Sverdrup around today, I think is what the author said in connection with that. And apparently he wasn't very impressed at what he saw was around. And right at the very beginning, they're saying we’ve gotta have a seminary. And right after that, we’ve gotta have a Bible school. And right at the same time, we need a world mission program. Now these congregations were mostly smaller, and as one writer did look back at how much they had contributed to the Lutheran Free Church, and it wasn't terribly impressive, and so how in the world do these people think they can do this? And even that, that conviction, has to be a miracle of God by itself, that there was such unity on it going forward. The closest thing to holding back—somebody said we should wait till we've got a dean in place before starting the Bible school. No, we're going ahead! That was it. The Lord will provide a dean, and he did, of course, all the way through. That is an incredible miracle in my mind that there was that kind of unanimity and there was that kind of support for it. And where did the support come from? Yeah, from the people that the Lord had laid upon their hearts that these things were important for the future. Yeah, incredible. 

Kirstie Skogerboe: The Bible school and the seminary are a wonderful example among many others of all of the evangelistic and missional and educational efforts in the AFLC in its first decade and a half. How did that emphasis on Christian teaching and evangelism shape the trajectory of the AFLC? And was that kind of emphasis unique among Lutheran church bodies at that time?  

Robert Lee: It was somewhat unique. I quote somewhere in the book from Pastor Huglen, who was our beloved editor for so many years and really, I think, shaped our fellowship through his writing—Raynard Huglen. And he's not here this year. Is this the first conference—one of the first—he's ever missed? Yeah, in his nineties. What, is he still preaching every Sunday, I guess, too? Yeah. Ruby keeps in touch with him there. And he said that there are some Lutherans that we’ll have a problem having fellowship with because they don't have the same understanding of the importance of evangelism that we have. Now I say in the book, and I think we've changed slightly and maybe properly over the years with this, because in the early 60s I think there was a majority conviction that probably everybody should have a datable conversion experience. Since that time, or even at that time, the idea of someone who has remained, continued to walk in the grace of their baptism, that was kind of a little doubtful. I don't think it's so doubtful among us anymore now today, and I think that was a needed adjustment in that way too.  

I often quote from a dear lady who was in Faith church in South Minneapolis who said to me once, “I don't care for testimony meetings.” And I said, “Well, what don't you like about testimony meetings?” And she said, “Well, I don't have a good testimony.” And I said, “Well, what is your testimony?” You know, I knew her as a solid Christian lady, a Sunday school teacher, and she said, “I've always loved Jesus.” “I've always loved Jesus,” she said. And I said, “Oh, Sophie, that's a beautiful testimony.” Yeah. And I think we need to recognize that and honor that too. At the same time, part of our heritage, and boy, we better not lose it, is the evangelization of the baptized. That's the term we've come to use over the years—the evangelization of the baptized. Where are you with the Lord today? And I think there are certainly worldwide, do we dare say, a majority of baptized people have walked away from the Lord? We need to recognize that our fundamental principles talk about the pastor in his sermon on Sunday morning, that there's a call to the lost. It's not just dear believers. It's a call to the lost as well. And some of those lost might surprise you who have wandered away from the Lord and need to be called back to Him today.  

Andrew Kneeland: You also cover, you write about, the years and periods where we went through some crisis and some controversy in the AFLC. You quoted Fritjof Monseth. In 1969, he said, whatever was regarded as calamity a few years ago, I regard as a great blessing today. The AFLC went through a number of challenges in the 1990s. From our position today and from your position today, in what ways can you look back on those years and see God at work?  

Robert Lee: Well, I certainly think God was at work during that time in holding us together, for sure, because they were very difficult times. And I give great credit to Dr. Monseth, because I think he was in many ways the key individual who, the stand he took, who walked with us through that time, who insisted that his writings would not be taken as official doctrinal positions of the AFLC, that we could disagree with him on some things, you know. That was very important in that period of time, holding us together.  

A blessing? You know, one of the blessings was good conference attendance. Yeah. Whoa, when there was trouble, I'll tell you, that would bring people out. Yeah. Unfortunately, maybe, but good too. There's, I think, a man here today who said his first annual conference was during one of those times, and I don't know that he's missed one since, and that's a good thing. And it helped awaken him, he said, to who we are and why we are who we are, through those difficult times. 

Yeah, oof! Those things are painful. There are misunderstandings. We lost some people. We lost a couple congregations, I think, probably through that time too. And just really, really unfortunate, and it hasn't gone well for them on their own, and I don't know that any of them have found a good new home in that way either. A couple different groups tried to get started and didn't really amount to anything, So yeah. God has blessed us with unity to continue going forward.  

Kirstie Skogerboe: The mid 2000s—moving on a little bit in our chronology—the mid 2000s until now have featured several significant anniversaries: the 50th and/or 60th anniversaries of the AFLC, the Bible College and Seminary, the AFLC mission work in Brazil, etc. And at the same time, fewer and fewer congregations have joined the AFLC, and the shortage of pastors has become acute. Why do you think we've experienced this kind of decline in these years? And what's necessary for our association to persist and flourish in the future?  

Robert Lee: Yeah. Well, several things here. There’s more alternatives for congregations today that weren't there in the same way when we were getting a great influx of new congregations. And I am very pleased for Scott's ordination last night, but I wish that there were 20 Scotts across the front there. And we have been encouraged to be praying for the Lord to lay that call upon the heart of future pastors and to send them for training. Yeah. I don't know. This is a tough one to answer. I think that, what I understand is the current burden of home missions is churches planting churches. And I think that that's a necessary approach, that some of our congregations are looking to plant new congregations, sometimes in their area, sometimes a little farther. And we do see one or two congregations coming our way. One of our pastors said to me several years ago that he expects that some of the congregations that made a different choice are going to be looking to us in the future and that they're not so happy with the choice they made. We do have one that has already done that—a couple that have already done that—as far as I know, and there are some among us who expect another wave of growth in that way. But we can't just sit around waiting for unhappy Lutherans to come. We need to be doing evangelism, and we need to be planting new churches on our own. And that's part of the key, maybe that is the key, to what we're talking about at this time, for us to persist and flourish in the future.  

Kirstie Skogerboe: Something that I thought about after looking at your book is that the story that we tell about a person or an event, or in this case, an association, influences our perception of that thing and the way that we relate to it. So some people initially told a story about the AFLC that said they'll last six weeks, and fortunately that story was not true. But other people may be telling a story of ultimate decline in the AFLC or, on the other hand, a story that’s so enamored of the AFLC’s original vision that it may be hard to see our areas for growth. So as you reflect on the past 62 years, what you and others helped begin, what you’ve witnessed as a member and a pastor, a teacher and a leader, how would you tell the story of our association, and how would you encourage us to tell that story to others?  

Robert Lee: I think it's important for us to remember that at heart we are a spiritual movement. We are a spiritual movement with deep roots in other spiritual movements. In our case, that spiritual movement has taken on a form and an organization, but that has to be seen as secondary to who we really are and how we see ourselves and present it to others. Praise God for opportunities to tell our story to others! And again I'll say, I hope that the book is a tool in that regard. Not just, as Pastor Huglen said in one editorial, not just a bunch of fussy people going over all the old battles, everything like that. I'm probably least happy with the last chapters of the book, where it seems like it's one conference to another, and no major theme coming through there perhaps. But maybe that was past the time for that, and it was a time of maturing that was taking place. But you know, some people are so mature, they're dead. 

Tell the story of a movement that God raised up and that He brought into existence through a series of miracles, and a beautiful heritage of life in Jesus Christ that we pass on to our families and that we pass on to generations to come. That’s our story. That’s what we want to pass on to others till Jesus returns. 

Andrew Kneeland: Thank you. Pastor. Lee. Thank you for the book.

Transcribed and edited by Ambassador Publications ©2024.

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